In this part of the story, Meno and Socrates further discuss what is virtue. Meno thinks Socrates is like the flat torpedo sea-fish, but Socrates still uses a way to ask a slave to Meno to prove that he is right.

Socrates
So that he who does not know about any matters, whatever they be, may have true opinions on such matters, about which he knows nothing?
Meno
Apparently.
Socrates
And at this moment those opinions have just been stirred up in him, like a dream; but if he were repeatedly asked these same questions in a variety of forms, you know he will have in the end as exact an understanding of them as anyone.
Meno
So it seems.

In Socrates’ view, anyone has a real opinion of one thing, even though they may not understand it.

When there is something that you know, you don’t have anything more to know about it, and so, no more need for an inquiry and when you don’t know what you are looking for, how do you know when you have found it?

“Why, on what lines will you look, Socrates, for a thing of whose nature you know nothing at all? Pray, what sort of thing, amongst those that you know not, will you treat us to as the object of your search? Or even supposing, at the best, that you hit upon it, how will you know it is the thing you didn’t know?” [p. 16]

In part two of “Plato’s” “Meno”, that is the question that Meno has for Socrates. As in part one, Socrates is helping Meno understand what virtue is by asking him questions that gets him to be more inquiring, and as Meno has become more questioning, he questions Socrates about how he will be able to find out what he is looking for, if he does not know what it is. And as Meno is wanting to learn about virtue, and is starting to loose hope in discovering what it could mean, Socrates decided to help Meno by putting a boy (one of Meno’s slaves) in the same situation that he was in, but with something that he (Meno) understands.

“There now, Meno do you not observe who progress he has already made in his recollection? At first he did not know what is the line that forms the figure of eight feet, and he does not know even now: but at any rate he thought he knew then, and confidently answered as though he knew, and was aware of no difficulty; whereas now he feels the difficulty he is in, and besides not knowing does he not think he knows.” [p. 22]

The problem that was easy for Meno to understand but was new for the boy was what the length of the sides were to get an area of 8 feet. The boy knew that 2 feet by 2 feet was 4, and so he assumed that  2 times the area would be 2 times the sides. This was something that Meno knew the answer, and he could see that as the boy kept of thinking, and as Socrates kept on asking questions, the boy started to begin to gain confidence and was then later able to solve it. I think that this shows us that by asking questions, we can find more about something than we did before, even if we didn’t get any answers.

In this part of the story, Meno and Socrates are still trying to find out what is virtue. Meno think Socrates is like a torpedo sea-fish, he always confuse others, but Socrates don’t think like that, he believes that knowledge doesn’t comes from teaching, it’s from asking. He ask Meno’s slave boy a question  about a square to prove that he is right.

Socrates

And so it does to me, Meno. Most of the points I have made in support of my argument are not such as I can confidently assert; but that the belief in the duty of inquiring after what we do not know will make us better and braver and less helpless than the notion that there is not even a possibility of discovering what we do not know, nor any duty of inquiring after it—this is a point for which I am determined to do battle, so far as I am able, both in word and deed.

i think this is the most important paragraph in this part of the story, but i don’t think i understand what it means, what i think is that we need to discover the things that we don’t know bravely, i’m not sure if i’m right or not.

How can you know if you’re right if you don’t know something? Meno is trying to figure this out in this part. Socrates claims that we aren’t learning anything at all, instead we are being reminded how to do something we were taught in a previous life, which kind of makes sense if you think about it. Your brain can make subconscious connections between topics and how to do things. Going deeper into that, studies show that children learn better than adults, the results scientist came to is that their brains are still developing. Could it be because we still remember our past life vaguely and we are trying to make sense of it before it disappears? Like Socrates says, “research and learning are wholly recollection” (p.17) we aren’t really learning anything we are just remembering things. This raises a lot of questions about being reborn after death and all the myths that come along with that, such as the light at the end of the tunnel is actually the light in the hospital and you cry because you are remembering your old life.

In the beginning, Meno reflects his confusion and comes up with some opinions about learning familiar or unfamiliar things.

Socrates, I used to be told, before I began to meet you, that yours was just a case of being
in doubt yourself and making others doubt also: and so now I find you are merely
bewitching me with your spells and incantations, which have reduced me to utter
perplexity. And if I am indeed to have my jest, I consider that both in your appearance and
in other respects you are extremely like the flat torpedo sea-fish; for it benumbs anyone
who approaches and touches it, and something of the sort is what I find you have done to
me now. For in truth I feel my soul and my tongue quite benumbed, and I am at a loss
what answer to give you. And yet on countless occasions I have made abundant speeches
on virtue to various people—and very good speeches they were, so I thought—but now I
cannot say one word as to what it is. You are well advised, I consider, in not voyaging or
taking a trip away from home; for if you went on like this as a stranger in any other city you
would very likely be taken up for a wizard.

This beginning of the sentences greatly reveals that Meno finally feels that Socrates have this kind of magical power that can make others doubt based on a case of being in doubt himself indeed. Like Meno even uses the analogy that considers Socrates as a flat torpedo sea-fish. For me, I also believe that Socrates who doesn’t know what is virtue just lets Meno become confused gradually about the problems of virtue.

Then, Meno asks Socrates if he can prove “learning is recollection”. And Socrates called a boy who never get the training of math and gave him a geometry problem. Through the discussing process, this boy began to aware his mistakes and have a new awareness of his own ignorance, which is actually a progression Socrates thought. In the end, Socrates just guided this boy find the right answer without clearly teaching him.

And so it does to me, Meno. Most of the points I have made in support of my argument are
not such as I can confidently assert; but that the belief in the duty of inquiring after
what we do not know will make us better and braver and less helpless than the notion
that there is not even a possibility of discovering what we do not know, nor any duty of
inquiring after it—this is a point for which I am determined to do battle, so far as I am able,
both in word and deed.

This is the conclusion Socrates offered.

The dialogue begins with Meno asking Socrates whether virtue can be taught, and this question then makes more questions until meno becomes insecure about what he believed.

On one of the first questions:

-Meno: I don’t; but, Socrates, you really don’t know what virtue is? Should I say this about
you to everyone back home?

-Socrates: Not only that, my friend. Tell everyone back home that I think I have never yet met
anyone who did know.

-Meno: What? Didn’t you meet Gorgias when he was here?
Sócrates: I did.

-Meno: Didn’t you think then that he knew?

P.1

Meno ask Sócrates if he knows whats virtue means and socrates doesn’t know then Meno asks if socrates knew someone that did know the meaning of virtue but socrates says that he indeed did not know someone with such knowledge.Since menos knew that Socrates knew Gorgias(Menos teacher)he was very shock about the fact that socrates did not believe that gorgias knew the meaning of virtue.This made him interested on what sócrates had to said.After that the whole conversation it’s basically socrates asking complicated questions about what meno thinked it was the meaning of virtue.Questions like:

Socrates: It must be my lucky day, Meno! Here I was, looking for just one virtue, and you
happen by with a whole swarm! But, Meno, following up on this figurative swarm of
mine, if I were to ask you what sort of being a bee is, and you said, ‘there are all sorts of
different sorts of bees,’ what would you say if I went on to ask: ‘Do you mean that there
are all sorts of different sorts of bees insofar as they are bees? Or are they no different,
insofar as they are bees, but they differ in other respects – in how beautiful they are, for
example, or how big, and so on and so forth?’ Tell me, what would you answer if I
asked you this?
P.2

They talk so much that they end up talking about power and desire.Socrates thought that meno wanted to know what virtue means because he wanted to have what he thought was virtue.

In conclusion the part one of the conversation between this 2 characters  is like this:At the very beginning meno really thinks that he knows what he’s talking about but as the conversation progresses and socrates keeps ask questions he slowly realizes that he doesn’t know at all about what they were talking about.

The main topic which Socrates and Meno argues is  “Is some of our knowledge innate or not?”

Yes,Socrates, but what do you mean by saying that we do not learn, and that what we call learning is recollection? Can you instruct me that this is so?

Socrates answer this question by asking “boy” the geometry question.

Socrates and Meno was talking about “virtue”. Socrates asked Meno ” What is a virtue”, but Meno answered the type of virtue as the answer to that question and that was not the answer that Socrates wanted.  After talking about virtue they started talking “What is evil” ,  “what is good” and why people do evil things”.

This conversation confused me.

meno declares himself confused. socrates says “I used to be told, before I knew you, that you were always doubting your self and making always daubt.

Menos description of how he feels gives us some idea of the effect socrates must have had on many people. the greek term for the situation he find himself in is “aporia”. he then presents socrates with a famous paradox.  Menos paradox: either we know something or we don’t. if we know it, we don’t need to enquire any further. but if we don’t know if we can’t enquire since we don’t know what were  looking for and won’t recognize it if we found it.

In part 2 of Meno there is a new character introduced who is called boy. In one part of this section Socrates is having a conversation with Boy about the size of a square figure. Then he talks to Meno about how he isn’t really teaching the boy anything:

Do you observe, Meno, that I am not teaching the boy anything, but merely asking him each time? And now he supposes that he knows about the line required to make a figure of eight square feet; or do you not think he does?

p.19

To this Meno replies that he thinks that the boy is just assuming based on the double size of the lines. I think that Socrates does this to show Meno how this relates to the questions that he had been asking Socrates before. The questions that Socrates asks the boy leads to the question for Meno and the Boy of how does he know the size of the square with out just assuming.

In part 2 of Meno, by Plato, Socrates and Meno begin to talk about many different topics, including mathematical theories that they test on Meno’s servant, a young boy. The boy proves he knows quite a bit about these mathematical theories and Socrates comes up with a theory that implies that the boy is in a “state of knowing”:

Now if he always had it, he was always in a state of knowing; and if he acquired it all some time, he could not have acquired it in this life. Or has someone taught him geometry? You see, he can do the same as this with all geometry and every branch of knowledge. Now, can anyone have taught him all this? You ought surely to know, especially as he was born and bred in your house.(27)

This quotation expands on the idea about being in a state of knowing. Another topic they spoke about was how the boy was confident in his answers even when he doesn’t fully know the answer. We still use this method of answering today. We guess things when we aren’t fully sure of our answer, and yet we still answer confidently. They also mentioned the different branches of knowledge which we talked about in our first TOK class.

TOK Plato’s Meno 2

From the begining, Meno ask Socrates that virtue can be taught or you born with it. in the reply, sorcrates said he don’t know about virtue itself, he asked Meno what virtue is, Meno gave the example of man, women, child and elderly man. Socrates did’t satisfies with the answer.

First of all, if you take the virtue of a man, it is easily stated that a man’s virtue is this–that he be competent to manage the affairs of his city, and to manage them so as to benefit his friends and harm his enemies, and to take care to avoid suffering harm himself. Or take a woman’s virtue: there is no difficulty in describing it as the duty of ordering the house well, looking after the property indoors, and obeying her husband. And the child has another virtue–one for the female, and one for the male; and there is another for elderly men–one, if you like, for freemen, and yet another for slaves.

 

Socrates give the example of “shape”, shape is that which alone of existing things always follows color

In every instance of figure I call that figure in which the solid ends; and I may put that more succinctly by saying that figure is “limit of solid.”

Socrate give a clear definition about moral and expect Meno would agree.

After I read part one, I found Meno always asking about “What is a virtue” to Socrates. 

Socrates gives an example of what is a virtue to Meno but he wants Socrates to accept his answer. I feel Meno is really thought he knows everything so, Meno can’t accept his answer and he thinks the teacher knows everything. And they continue to argue, but the change from virtue to talk of “what is good”, “what is evil” and “Why people do evil things”.

Meno makes me think a lot and really hard to understand what they talking about.

Especially pages 5-6 were confusing me.

Socrates
No, indeed, it would be unlikely, my excellent friend. And again, consider this further point:
you say it is “to be able to govern”; shall we not add to that—“justly, not unjustly”?
Meno
Yes, I think so; for justice, Socrates, is virtue.
Socrates
Virtue, Meno, or a virtue?
Meno
What do you mean by that?
Socrates
What I would in any other case. To take roundness, for instance; I should call it a figure,
and not figure pure and simple. And I should name it so because there are other figures as
well.
Meno
You would be quite right—just as I say there are other virtues besides justice.
Socrates
What are they? Tell me. In the same way as I can tell you of other figures, if you request
me, so do you tell me of other virtues.
Meno
Well then, courage, I consider, is a virtue, and temperance, and wisdom, and loftiness of
mind; and there are a great many others.
Socrates
Once more, Meno, we are in the same plight: again we have found a number of virtues when we were looking for one, though not in the same way as we did just now; but the one that runs through them all, this we are not able to find.

Meno
No, for I am not yet able, Socrates, to follow your line of search, and find a single virtue
common to all, as one can in other cases.
Socrates
And no wonder; but I will make an effort, so far as I can, to help us onward. You
understand, of course, that this principle of mine applies to everything: if someone asked
you the question I put to you just now: What is figure, Meno? and you replied: Roundness;
and then he said, as I did: Is roundness figure or a figure? I suppose you would answer: A
figure.
Meno
Certainly.
Socrates
And for this reason—that there are other figures as well?
Platoʼs ʻMenoʼ, tr. W.R.M. Lamb • Page 5 of 47
Meno
Yes.
Socrates
And if he went on to ask you of what sort they were, you would tell him?
Meno
I would.
Socrates
And if he asked likewise what color is, and on your answering “white” your questioner then
rejoined: Is “white” color or a color? your reply would be: A color; because there are other
colors besides.
Meno
It would.
Socrates
And if he bade you mention other colors, you would tell him of others that are colors just as
much as white?
Meno
Yes.
Socrates
Now suppose that, like me, he pursued the argument and said: We are always arriving at a
variety of things, but let me have no more of that: since you call these many things by one
single name, and say they are figures, every one of them, even when they are opposed to
one another, tell me what is that which comprises round and straight alike, and which you
call figure—including straight equally with round under that term. For that is your
statement, is it not?
Meno
It is.
Socrates
And in making it, do you mean to say that round is no more round than straight, or straight
no more straight than round?
Meno
No, to be sure, Socrates.
Socrates
What you mean is that the round shape is no more a figure than the straight, or the straight
than the round.
Meno
Quite right.

Because they change the topic so, I get really confused.

After reading the entire second part, I found out that this part did not discuss the definition of virtue as in the first part. The second part is roughly about the source of knowledge that Socrates and Meno are discussing. Socrates believes that knowledge is not taught. He believes that knowledge is a kind of memory, something that is engraved into the soul. Socrates also believes that knowledge can be triggered by asking questions to trigger memories in the soul.

Socrates：
Now if he always had it, he was always in a state of knowing; and if he acquired it all some time, he could not have acquired it in this life. Or has someone taught him geometry? You see, he can do the same as this with all geometry and every branch of knowledge. Now, can anyone have taught him all this? You ought surely to know, especially as he was born and bred in your house.
Meno：
Well, I know that no one has ever taught him.
Socrates：
And has he these opinions, or has he not?
Meno：
He must have them, Socrates, evidently.
Socrates：
And if he did not acquire them in this present life, is it not obvious at once that he had them and learnt them during some other time?
Meno：
Apparently.
Socrates
And this must have been the time when he was not a human being?
Meno
Yes.

This paragraph is that Socrates persuaded Meno’s knowledge to be engraved in the soul. In fact, if you look at it from the perspective of Socrates, he is really right. But carefully read the dialogue between Socrates and the boy, you will find that he is constantly educating the boy through the inducing. The boy has a certain mathematical foundation, so Socrates broke through a question by asking questions, slowly inducing the boy to learn new knowledge and go to find the answer himself. Is this not a kind of teaching?

Socrates is the “most intelligent” person in Greece. If he is the leader of a cult, he will succeed in brainwashing most of the people. The way of inducing can not only teach the boy, but also make us convinced. If, as he said, knowledge is preserved in the soul, then is there something else in our soul? For example, I used to be a warrior. I came back to the world through reincarnation. Then, when I am in danger, can I trigger the memories and skills that I used to be warriors? It may also be that my knowledge is too shallow and I can’t understand the idea of ​​thinking like Socrates.

In the part two of Plate Meno, Meno was cannot understand his states clearly so he was confusing about this and he still have a conversation with Socrates. And after that Socrates think that learning is recollection which means people have to keep learning and if you want to learn more knowledge and other things you have to get these things in confusing.

In my opinion I think that Socrates was trying to persuade Meno that knowledge have to be learning in confusing and people have to keep learning because he think learning is recollection, however Meno was really confusing about what he is talking about.

Socrates： I remarked just now, Meno, that you are a rogue and so here you are asking if I can instruct you, when I say there is no teaching but only recollection: you hope that I may be caught contradicting myself forthwith.

Meno： I assure you, Socrates; that was not my intention I only spoke from habit. But if you can somehow prove to me that it is as you say, pray do so.

Socrates： It is no easy matter, but still I am willing to try my best for your sake. Just call one of your own troop of attendants there, whichever one you please, that he may serve for my demonstration.

Above all, Socrates think there is no teaching but only recollection, and Meno agree with him at now. After this, Socrates think there is nothing easy in the life.

In my opinion Socrates’s point of view is not fully true because learning do can recollect about knowledge but that is not the only way to keep remembering, on the other hand if a person is in confusing when he learn something difficult, probably he meet a problem so confusing is not the meaning of learning.

The second of part is that Meno and Socrates are discussing “the soul of man”. Socrates thinks that our souls are constantly circulating in the world, and that they know a lot of things that we may not know.

At first I had no idea why they were talking about such unrealistic things, but then I thought, maybe that’s one of the things Socrates is trying to tell us, not that we are ignorant, but that we don’t want to think. Human beings may never remember the memory of the soul, but Socrates and a boy did an experiment, at the beginning of the boy justifiably think his answer is right, but after Socrates’ torture, the boy finally began to have doubts about his answer, and then think from it.

He began to think, also gradually recalled the answer to the soul in his body. It may sound unrealistic, but that’s probably the smartest thing about being human. I particularly like what Socrates said:

Most of the points I have made in support of my argument are not such as I can confidently assert; but that the belief in the duty of inquiring after what we do not know will make us better and braver and less helpless than the notion that there is not even a possibility of discovering what we do not know, nor any duty of inquiring after it—this is a point for which I am determined to do battle, so far as I am able, both in word and deed.

It was this inspiring passage that made me understand what Socrates had said.

In part 2 of Meno, Meno and Socrates engage in a discussion about the importance of doubt and inquiry. Socrates first debates with Meno, then moves on to teach a young boy about maths and geometry. The boy (nameless in the script) answers to all of Socrates’ questions in a similar fashion as Meno in part 1, but in comparison, more displayed the purity of children as Meno cared only about fame and wealth.

In teaching the boy geometry, Socrates reveals his thinking: that knowledge is not gained through learning or being taught, but through recalling and recollecting during the process and motivation of inquiry and curiosity.

Socrates: I remarked just now, Meno, that you are a rogue and so here you are asking if I can instruct you, when I say there is no teaching but only recollection: you hope that I may be caught contradicting myself forthwith.

This theory, Socrates proved by his conversation with the boy about geometry: he has taught the boy nothing, only guiding him to inquire, and the boy moved from ignorant to knowing towards geometry through his own recollections.

Socrates: And a figure of this sort may be larger or smaller?

Boy: To be sure.

Socrates: Now if this side were two feet and that also two, how many feet would the whole be? Or let me put it thus: if one way it were two feet, and only one foot the other, of course the space would be two feet taken once ?

Boy: Yes.

This is another display of Socrates’ theory of knowledge: That one is ignorant, but wise if acknowledging that fact and holding a heart of inquiry. This theory that one holds knowledge, it is just yet to be discovered is truly fascinating as a topic to be discussed in Theory of Knowledge. This part of the script also proves once again the importance of simple will to discover and inquire, that motivation to ask whatever unknown just might lead to all the answers one may ever need.

Reference:

Plato, and Sir Walter Rangeley Maitland Lamb. Laches. Protagoras. Meno. Euthydemus. 1962.

Part 1 of Plato’s ‘Meno’, a socratic dialogue scripted by one of Socrates’ followers, Plato, describe the conversation between Socrates and Meno, on the topic of the definition of virtue and whether or not it can be taught or learnt. The conversation reveals several interesting and deep theories, and discusses in a deep manner the techniques behind logical reasoning and defining certain terms with a single definition instead of multiple others.

Meno is surprised by Socrates a several of times due to Socrates words contradicting what Meno himself believes is the wisest man in all of Greece, such as:

Socrates: so far am I from knowing whether it can be taught or not, that I actually do not even know what the thing itself, virtue, is at all. And I myself, Meno, am in the same case; I share my townsmen’s poverty in this matter: I have to reproach myself with an utter ignorance about virtue; and if I do not know what a thing is, how can I know what its nature may be? Or do you imagine it possible, if one has no cognizance at all of Meno, that one could know whether he is handsome or rich or noble, or the reverse of these? Do you suppose that one could?

Meno: Not I. But is it true, Socrates, that you do not even know what virtue is? Are we to return home with this report of you?

Socrates: Not only this, my friend, but also that I never yet came across anybody who did know, in my opinion.

Meno is constantly struck by Socrates, as he truly believes he would gain a complete answer from what he believes is the wisest man of all. Yet Socrates provides him with the examples of ‘figure’ and ‘colour’, which he uses to hint to Meno that he is on search not for those who fall under virtue, but the one true definition of virtue.

Socrates: And in making it, do you mean to say that round is no more round than straight, or straight no more straight than round?

Yet arrogant and ignorant as Meno is, he simply does not catch the hints of Socrates and only easily exposes his intentions behind asking the question: to gain power and wealth. He believes that an absurd answer to the definition of colour seems excellently put simply because that it is put in the style of his teacher Gorgias.

Socrates: So now “conceive my meaning,” as Pindar says: color is an effluence of figures, commensurate with sight and sensible.

Meno: Your answer, Socrates, seems to me excellently put.

Reaching the end of the conversation, Socrates finally debates Meno fully:

Socrates: Because after my begging you not to break up virtue into small change, and giving you a pattern on which you should answer, you have ignored all this, and now tell me that virtue is the ability to procure good things with justice; and this, you tell me, is a part of virtue?

Thus by here, the essentials behind the dialogue can be concluded: Socrates attempts to gain a definition of a concept from Meno, who implies he knows. Yet after discussion and debate, it is revealed that nor Meno, who claims to know and Socrates, who is the wisest man, is unable to provide one exact definition. Proving that the wisest of Socrates is the fact that he acknowledges the fact that he is ignorant, and accepts this as a motivation for everlasting recollection in order to learn.

Reference:

Plato, and Sir Walter Rangeley Maitland Lamb. Laches. Protagoras. Meno. Euthydemus. 1962.

we have now entered the next part of this passage and a new character is being introduced. he does not have a name but is only called “boy”. I did not realise until the very end that Meno was in this passage.i was aware that Boy was speaking but Meno was there at the beginning which i did not notice. when i read about this, it was very similar to part 1. for example, boy was asking many questions in and over his head, even over my head.

the way Boy always asks Socrates about all these complex things gives me reason to believe that Boy and Meno maybe are friends and both wanted to talk to Socrates. so far i enjoy part one most because that one makes much more sense to me.

To be completely honest, i cant make much sense of this writing piece, i can understand that the writer is trying to make people understand what virtue is. the dialogue is pretty complex and hard to follow which may be the time period it was written in, or maybe to make people think harder about the lines

the dialogue starts off with a question, one that can be answered right away, or answered through the writing. from what i read about Meno part 1, i think he is a younger figure looking up to Socrates. i think that because Socrates has much longer replies and Meno asks many questions about mature things. i find the sentence “Do you say that he who desires the honourable is desirous of the good”, because there are some people in the world who desire evil, knowing that is it evil, but some who desire evil, thinking it is good. the script really has me thinking about every mistake and bad thing i have done in my life, was it because i knew it was bad or because i thought i was doing it for good?

In the first part of ‘Meno’, I saw Socrates and Meno discussing what virtue is. Meno gave some examples to Socrates. Socrates did not directly tell Meno what it was, but instead guided Meno by asking questions (it is possible that Socrates does not know what virtue is.)

Socrates
Is it only in the case of virtue, do you think, Meno, that one can say there is one kind
belonging to a man, another to a woman, and so on with the rest, or is it just the same,
too, in the case of health and size and strength? Do you consider that there is one health
for a man, and another for a woman? Or, wherever we find health, is it of the same
character universally, in a man or in anyone else?
Meno
I think that health is the same, both in man and in woman.
Socrates
Then is it not so with size and strength also? If a woman is strong, she will be strong by
reason of the same form and the same strength; by “the same” I mean that strength does
not differ as strength, whether it be in a man or in a woman. Or do you think there is any
difference?
Meno
I do not.
Socrates
And will virtue, as virtue, differ at all whether it be in a child or in an elderly person, in a
woman or in a man?
Meno
I feel somehow, Socrates, that here we cease to be on the same ground as in those other
cases.
Socrates
Why? Were you not saying that a man’s virtue is to manage a state well, and a woman’s a
house?
Meno
I was.
Socrates
And is it possible to manage a state well, or a house, or anything at all, if you do not
manage it temperately and justly?
Meno
Surely not.
Socrates
Then whoever manages temperately and justly will manage with temperance and justice?
Platoʼs ʻMenoʼ, tr. W.R.M. Lamb • Page 3 of 47
Meno
That must be.
Socrates
Then both the woman and the man require the same qualities of justice and temperance, if
they are to be good.
Meno
Evidently.
Socrates
And what of a child or an old man? Can they ever hope to be good if they are intemperate
and unjust?
Meno
Surely not.
Socrates
Only if they are temperate and just?
Meno
Yes.
Socrates
So all mankind are good in the same way; for they become good when they acquire the
same qualities.
Meno
So it seems.
Socrates
And I presume, if they had not the same virtue, they would not be good in the same way.
Meno
No, indeed.

In part one I think that Socrates is not giving Meno the full answers to his questions because he is trying to teach him and get him to learn about virtue for himself. When Socrates gives Meno an answer he also turns in into a question to make Meno think more about what he is really asking.

When I was reading this I had a hard time understanding what was happening with the conversations between them. I think that this was hard to understand because of how the dialogue was worded differently then the reading I am used to. One thing that I did understand from this is that different people will have different opinions and ideas of what virtue is to them. At the end of part one I understood that they were talking about why people do things that they know are bad.

In the very end of the first part Meno is still left with the same questions about virtue but he has also learned more about different views of what virtue is.

In part one of “Plato’s” “meno”, Meno is asking Socrates about virtue and if virtue can be taught or acquired by practice. At the start of the script, Meno is very sure that he knows what virtue is and that virtue changes depending on the person’s gender, role in society (class), and by age.

“Why, there is no difficulty, Socrates, in telling. First of all, if you take the virtue of a man, it is easily stated that a man’s virtue is this…or take a woman’s virtue…And the child has another virtue-one for female, and one for the male; and there is another for male -one, if you like, for freemen, and yet another for slaves. And there are very many other virtues besides, so that one cannot be at a loss to explain what virtue is; for it is according to each activity and age that every one of us, in whatever we do, has his virtue; and the same, I take it, Socrates, will hold also of vice.” [P.  2]

I find this very strong because as Meno has a clear and firm believing of this, us as the audience or readers can tell that it is not correct and that we know that Socrates will try and help him better understand.

Something that I found very interesting was that Socrates would tell Meno the answer not by telling him, but by asking questions that gets Meno to think about what he is saying.

“Then is it not with size and strength also? if a woman is strong, she will be strong by reason of the same form and the same strength; by “the same” I mean that strength does not differ as strength, whether it be a man or in a woman. Or do you think there is any difference?” [P. 3]

Socrates does that with all the questions that Meno has and presents the answer back to him so that he can figure it out. What Socrates is doing is what TOK does to the person. Socrates gets Meno to think about all aspects of the question, and gets him to connect it to other things. At the end, Meno does not know what virtue is, but he ends up with the knowledge to know what “a” virtue is. Socrates taught Meno that you can never be too sure about the information that he has and how something that he thought before was so simple and easy, is now only a fraction of what it really was, and a fraction of knowing what it truly is.

In part 1 of Meno by Plato, Socrates and his student Meno spoke about the definitions of virtue and figure. The language they used was confusing and hard to follow, even for a fluent english speaker like myself. Their sentence structure and repetition of certain words is what threw me off when reading it, not the idea behind the writing. For example, on page 3 this quotation is an example of confusing sentence structure and language.

And will virtue, as virtue, differ at all whether it be in a child or in an elderly person, in a woman or in a man?

The reason I was confused by this was the repetition of virtue. The rest of the quotation makes sense.

The other idea that was thrown around at the end of part 1 was why people do evil things or how they can desire to do evil things. This was pretty much the only part in part 1 that understood almost fully. I think the idea that was being communicated through this part was that people can have evil intentions even when they know they are doing something wrong.

TOK_ Meno, Part 1

I didn’t completely understand all of the conversation but I understand the concept of Meno talking to Socrates trying to figure out how to find ‘Virtue.’ In the text Meno is saying Virtue but in the context sound more like he wants success. The most powerful response from Socrates was “for in seeking one virtue I have discovered a whole swarm of virtues there in your keeping’ (pg. 2)

What I get from this sentence is by working towards something, you gain other skills that you need to accomplish what you are trying to, but they can also be used in other cases. For example if you were trying to become a really good communicator you might also develop more patience. Another example if we are talking about success instead of virtues would be you want to retire, along the way you would have multiple success’ in work and relationships.

In the first part of this Plato’s Meno, Meno and Socrate have a big conversation about what mean virtue. Meno is asking Socrate and he get a lesson from logical reason. And Socrate get a conclusion about why people do evil things.

 Meno: Can you tell me, Socrates, whether virtue can be taught, or is acquired by practice, not teaching? Or if neither by practice nor by learning, whether it comes to mankind by nature or in some other way?

Socrates: Meno, of old the Thessalians were famous and admired among the Greeks for their riding and their riches; but now they have a name, I believe, for wisdom also, especially your friend Aristippus’s people, the Larisaeans. For this you have to thank Gorgias: for when he came to that city he made the leading men of the Aleuadae–among them your lover Aristippus–and the Thessalians generally enamored of wisdom. Nay more, he has given you the regular habit of answering any chance question in a fearless, magnificent manner, as befits those who know: for he sets the example of offering himself to be questioned by any Greek who chooses, and on any point one likes, and he has an answer for everybody. Now in this place, my dear Meno, we have a contrary state of things: a drought of wisdom, as it were, has come on; and it seems as though wisdom had deserted our borders in favour of yours. You have only to ask one of our people a question such as that, and he will be sure to laugh and say: Stranger, you must think me a specially favoured mortal, to be able to tell whether virtue can be taught, or in what way it comes to one: so far am I from knowing whether it can be taught or not, that I actually do not even know what the thing itself, virtue, is at all. And I myself, Meno, am in the same case; I share my townsmen’s poverty in this matter: I have to reproach myself with an utter ignorance about virtue; and if I do not know what a thing is, how can I know what its nature may be? Or do you imagine it possible, if one has no cognizance at all of Meno, that one could know whether he is handsome or rich or noble, or the reverse of these? Do you suppose that one could?

Meno: Not I. But is it true, Socrates, that you do not even know what virtue is? Are we to return home with this report of you?

Socrates: Not only this, my friend, but also that I never yet came across anybody who did know, in my opinion.

From this big conversation we could know that Socrate are trying to indicate that virtue is getting kind by truth thing, and Meno is arguing with Socrate for instance Meno think Socrate don’t know what virtue is so they do have argument during this conversation.

The general content of the first part is that Socrates and Meno are arguing what is virtue. They have discussed virtues in many ways. For example, is there a classification of virtues? Is there a definition of virtue? There are a lot more. Both of them expressed their opinions and always refute the other’s point of view. Even if I read this article, I almost forgot what the virtue is. I think they both have their own definition of virtue, they just want to argue with each other.

One of them I don’t know very well, which is why I think that the two of them are arguments because they want to argue with each other.

Socrates:
Seeing then that it is the same virtue in all cases, try and tell me, if you can recollect, what Gorgias—and you in agreement with him—say it is.
Meno:
Simply that it is the power of governing mankind—if you want some single description to cover all cases.
Socrates:
That is just what I am after. But is virtue the same in a child, Meno, and in a slave—an ability to govern each his master? And do you think he who governed would still be a slave?
Meno:
I should say certainly not, Socrates.
Platoʼs ʻMenoʼ, tr. W.R.M. Lamb • Page 4 of 47
Socrates:
No, indeed, it would be unlikely, my excellent friend. And again, consider this further point: you say it is “to be able to govern”; shall we not add to that—“justly, not unjustly”?
Meno:
Yes, I think so; for justice, Socrates, is virtue.
Socrates:
Virtue, Meno, or a virtue?
Meno:
What do you mean by that?
Socrates:
To take roundness, for instance; I should call it a figure, and not figure pure and simple. And I should name it so because there are other figures as well.
Meno:
You would be quite right—just as I say there are other virtues besides justice.
Socrates:
In the same way as I can tell you of other figures, if you request me, so do you tell me of other virtues.
Meno:
Well then, courage, I consider, is a virtue, and temperance, and wisdom, and loftiness of mind; and there are a great many others.
Socrates:
And more of the same way as we were just for; Are not able to find.
Meno:
No, for I am not yet able, Socrates, to follow your line of search, and find a single virtue common to all, as one can in other cases.
Socrates:
And no wonder; but I will make an effort, so far as I can, to help us onward. You understand, of course, that this principle of mine applies to everything: if someone asked you the question I put to you just now: What is figure, Meno? and you replied: Roundness; and then he said, as I did: Is roundness figure or a figure? I suppose you would answer: A figure.
Meno:
Certainly.
Socrates:
And for this reason—that there are other figures as well?

From this passage, I think Socrates does not try to understand the meaning or meaning of virtue. I think he already has a virtue. He just wanted to convince Meno or brainwashing Meno. In fact, I think all philosophers are like this. What they are saying is to make us confused and then instill their consciousness or knowledge into us.

I don’t think the philosopher’s discussion has any benefit to me or let me learn new things. Instead, I almost forgot what is a virtue.

I found the paper titled MENO slightly hard to read because it is very philosophical. The part that struck me as the most intriguing was when Meno asked Socrates what he thinks of colour. Then Socrates stalls for a bit and then finally answers Meno.

Meno
And what do you say of color, Socrates?

Socrates
How overbearing of you, Meno, to press an old man with demands for answers, when you
will not trouble yourself to recollect and tell me what account Gorgias gives of virtue!
Meno
When you have answered my question, Socrates, I will answer yours.
Socrates
One might tell even blindfolded, Meno, by the way you discuss, that you are handsome
and still have lovers.
Meno
Why so?
Socrates
Because you invariably speak in a peremptory tone, after the fashion of spoilt beauties,
holding as they do a despotic power so long as their bloom is on them. You have also, I
daresay, made a note of my weakness for handsome people. So I will indulge you, and
answer.
Meno
You must certainly indulge me.
Socrates
Then would you like me to answer you in the manner of Gorgias,2 which you would find
easiest to follow?
Meno
I should like that, of course.
Socrates
Do not both of you say there are certain effluences of existent things, as Empedocles
held?
Meno
Certainly.
Socrates
And passages into which and through which the effluences pass?
Meno
To be sure.
Socrates
And some of the effluences fit into various passages, while some are too small or too
large?
Meno
That is so.
Socrates
And further, there is what you call sight?
Meno
Yes.
Socrates
So now “conceive my meaning,” as Pindar says: color is an effluence of figures,
commensurate with sight and sensible.

I don’t know why Socrates, let’s say, held back his answer for a little bit, but in the end, he did answer. I agree that colour is just a flow of figures and is equal with sight and sensibility. I liked this part of the conversation because when Meno first asked Socrates about colour, Socrates replied with a bit of sarcasm which I liked. I also liked the fact that Socrates goes very deep into his thoughts and give an answer that is full of wisdom even though Socrates made it simpler so that Meno could understand better.